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The Future of Content episode 2: Make a Game of It

24 Min. ReadDigital strategy

The Future of Content Episode 2: Make a Game of It

Randy Dean Oest joins The Future of Content podcast in episode 2, “Make a Game of It,” as our first featured guest. Randy is my colleague at Four Kitchens. When he’s not at work, he is deeply involved in the world of tabletop role-playing games. Randy bought his first Dungeons & Dragons book when he was 14 and started playing at 17. Twenty-five years later, he still plays weekly, and has maintained a wiki with game notes for the past 14 years.

This book, or series of books, contain all of the rules for the game, and it has to serve many different functions.

Randy explains how games have a system reference document (SRD) that allows people to build on a game like a third-party publisher. Some game makers use this to “open source” or “open up” their game engine for use by fans. This was popularized by Dungeons & Dragons in the third edition in 2000 and has since grown in popularity. All of the games Randy has built websites for are open-source, including Fate and Blades in the Dark. Randy’s work on these games’ websites have won him multiple ENnie awards — the Oscars of the RPG world.

There was an open-source revolution inside of the role-playing game industry

Randy Dean Oest

Randy is the Design Manager and a front-end engineer at Four Kitchens.

Relevant links:

Stream episode 2 now, or subscribe on your favorite podcast platform below.

Episode transcript

Note: This transcript may contain some minor wording and formatting errors. Apologies in advance!

[Voiceover] Welcome to The Future of Content, a podcast exploring how we create, manage and distribute content. Brought to you by Four Kitchens: We make BIG websites.

[Todd] Welcome to The Future of Content. I’m your host, Todd Nienkerk. Every episode we invite a guest to explore an aspect of content and to make predictions about the future of that content. We’ll talk to people who create content: writers, marketers, filmmakers, performers, and people who build the tools that manage and distribute content. If you create, manage, or publish content, welcome! This podcast is for you.

I am very pleased to introduce our very first guest, Randy Oest. Randy is a senior designer and front-end engineer at Four Kitchens, but that’s not why he’s here today. Instead, Randy’s here to talk about role-playing games and the complex world of content that powers them. Welcome to The Future of Content, Randy.

[Randy] Thanks for having me, Todd. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[Todd] Anytime, anytime. So, of course, we work together, but one of the things that has always intrigued me so much about the work that you do outside of work is your involvement in role-playing games. So before we get too far down the road of content and RPGs and all of this, what is a role-playing game? What does it involve in a nutshell?

[Randy] Absolutely. So just to be clear, we’re talking about tabletop role-playing games, which are different than video-game role-playing games. In a tabletop role-playing game— The most popular one is Dungeons & Dragons, where you typically have a little map laid out. You’ve got dice for figuring this out. A tabletop role-playing game is a game of the imagination that uses dice to kind of simulate random things that happen to figure out if something went well or something did not go so well.

[Todd] And so how do you decide the way the game is played, right? There are certain roles in a role-playing game. I am truly ignorant about how RPGs work. Despite my nerd bona fides, I have never actually played a tabletop role-playing game. I’ve observed them from afar. I’ve seen Stranger Things. I have some idea of what happens. But what are some of the basic roles in a role-playing game?

[Randy] Sure. Let’s add another stamp to that nerd card of yours today. So the roles within a role-playing game vary by the game itself. In Dungeons & Dragons, you can play a wizard, a rogue, a fighter, a cleric. And in other role-playing games, you can play other types of characters based on the genre, whether it’s science fiction— So if you want to play Star Wars, you can be a Jedi or a Scoundrel or a Rogue Princess with the plans, avoiding Darth Vader. And so you are enabled through the game to play these roles inside of the game, inside of the story that’s being told collectively by the group that’s playing.

[Todd] So let’s talk about that story, because that’s what I’d like to focus on today. I want to focus on the content side of role-playing games. There is a specific kind of role in these games, right, that’s sort of… I don’t want to say elevated above the rest but is unique within the experience, right?

[Randy] Yeah. Absolutely. And what you’re alluding to is the role of what’s known as the Dungeon Master or the Gamemaster. And that is the person who is taking care of managing the story and everything that isn’t an individual player. So, for instance, going back to Star Wars for a moment, the players are playing Luke and Leia and Han and Chewie and R2. But the Gamemaster, or Dungeon Master, is playing all of the stormtroopers that are coming to hunt them down. They’re playing Darth Vader, who’s menacing them, and setting up the direction for the players to go. Whenever they solve a certain puzzle or they do a certain thing, that person, that Gamemaster is what’s deciding what the next step is and providing road for the players to keep going down.

[Todd] So the Gamemaster, then, sounds like somebody who is both storyteller but also— I guess in a more traditional board game, they’re the bank, they’re the rule book, they’re—

[Randy] Mm-hmm. That’s exactly it.

[Todd] But they’re also trying to engineer a story. You say that this is a game about imagination, so what I suspect makes role-playing games unique from other kinds of games is that the active imagination of the Gamemaster or Dungeon Master is itself a key component of the experience of the game, right? You as a Dungeon Master have the ability to throw curveballs at the people playing the game at the table, and— Is that all correct so far? Am I in the ballpark?

[Randy] That’s absolutely correct. And the scale of that varies based on the group of people who are playing, and the game itself. So there are some games where the responsibility lies in the realm of the GM—the Gamemaster. They’re responsible for setting everything up and playing it out, whereas in other role-playing games there is a lot more freedom, and so the players themselves impact the world more directly than just making character choices. They can actually make choices about the world itself, and it becomes a lot more collaborative in that way.

[Todd] So when you’re playing a game like this— You talk about how some of the games are really structured, and the players have lots of control or a little bit of control, depending on the type of game that’s being played. Where is all of this contained? Is there a book that you’re working out of? And if so, physically, what does it look like, and who interacts with it?

[Randy] Sure, sure. So role-playing games— The typical form-factor is basically an encyclopedia, and this book or series of books contain all of the rules for the game and it has to serve many different functions. So this rule book that says what the game can do, it has to inspire potential Gamemasters to want to run the game. So it has to tell this story about this fictional world or this fictional scenario where they’re going to want to run the game. The rulebook also has to contain the rules for the game as well, and it has to explain it clearly and concisely. So whereas video games have an algorithm—have code that checks and balances and makes sure that everything plays correctly—in a roleplaying game, it’s up to the Gamemaster or Dungeon Master to make sure that the rules are being played out correctly and fairly. And so the rulebook itself has to be written in a way that is accessible and friendly and the rules have to be findable because you’re not going to remember everything when you’re at the table playing, and being able to reference that quickly is important. So we’ve got game rules and we’ve got entertainment, and so the Gamemaster interacts with the rulebook for that in that way.

[Todd] So it’s a physical book?

[Randy] Yes. Yes.

[Todd] And it’s comprised of sections and chapters or lists or things like that. If I were to flip through one of these— First of all, how big is it?

[Randy] It varies by roleplaying game. It could be anywhere from about 150 pages to upwards of five or six hundred pages. There are some of them— I’ve got a roleplaying game book on my shelf that I think is easily like 10 pounds.

[Todd] So as you flip through it— I assume that there are various sections where it opens with an introduction that explains, I don’t know, the universe that you’re playing in, or some background information or things like that. What would I see if I were to just run my finger along that book and just flip through it? What are some of the sections I would see in a book like that?

[Randy] Absolutely. So you would see a chapter on character creation, so if— In Dungeons & Dragons, you would have a chapter where you would see what it takes to play a wizard, or build and play a wizard, or a rogue, or a cleric, or a fighter. You would see a chapter on additional gaming information like how to resolve conflicts in the game. So if you want to get past an orc or an orc army, what you have to do to do that. And there’s a chapter on those sorts of rules. There’s a chapter on spells, a chapter on character backgrounds, chapters on monsters, how to run the game. It takes you through piece-by-piece the game itself.

[Todd] When you come across a situation that the book hasn’t predicted—you outline these things like you run across an orc or an orc army or certain kinds of spells or when there’s conflicts in the game—are there general guidelines that are given to you as a Dungeon Master to solve those things? I assume it can’t predict every edge case.

[Randy] Oh, absolutely not. Generally what happens is that the game system has rules for how to take care of a majority of the things that you’re going to come across. In those stress cases or edge cases in the game, then it is up to the Gamemaster to figure out how to resolve that in a fair way that fits within the narrative that you’re telling. So if you’re trying to get past this orc army, you need to determine what kind of roll or how complicated that should be. It could be as simple as one roll of a die, or it could be as complicated as three sessions worth of material, as the people are sneaking through the orc army. Fighting little skirmishes and sneaking by and such. So that’s kind of the discretion of the person running the game and what fits within the narrative and how they want to resolve that.

[Todd] So it kind of goes without saying—I didn’t set this up in the introduction—but it goes without saying that you yourself are frequently a Dungeon Master in these games, right?

[Randy] Oh, yes. Absolutely.

[Todd] And this is a role you prefer, I assume?

[Randy] Yeah, this is— I’ve been a Gamemaster since I was 17 or 18, and I’m now 42. I can say that I’ve probably played at least once a week in the intervening years. So I’ve got a lot of play hours under my belt.

[Todd] So with this level of expertise, I bet if we did the 10,000-hour thing, right, you’d probably qualify at this point, so—

[Randy] Yeah. I have a doctorate [laughter].

[Todd] So by Malcolm Gladwell standards, you are an expert in role-playing games and in Dungeon Mastery. You must have come across or dealt with a lot of these artifacts. These books. These encyclopedias of the game. I know everybody’s different, but have you seen commonalities in how people dog-ear and bookmark and annotate and otherwise manipulate these artifacts? Do people start to add their own things? Do they start to insert pages that they printed off somewhere, or do they carry notebooks with them? How does that book start to get used in the real world and grow into its own thing, if at all?

[Randy] Just about any way that you could annotate an encyclopedia, I’ve seen it done to role-playing gamebooks. I’ve seen dog-eared pages. I’ve seen various pieces of texts highlighted within the books themselves. Various tabs sticking out. People will create their own indexes or table of contents for information that they need to find frequently. One thing about role-playing game players is that if there’s something missing, they have a tendency to create that thing that’s missing. I mean, books get a lot of wear tear and a lot of use. Because of role-playing games books themselves, while they’re set up really well for that Gamemaster reading experience, whenever it comes time to play the game at the table, the way that you interact with that content changes. So whenever I as a Gamemaster encounter a new roleplaying game, I’ll read it typically from cover to cover so I can get an understanding of the way that the rules work and the flavor of the roleplaying game. Okay? And if I like both of those things, I bring it to the table and I run a game.

But the way that I’ve interacted with that book changes with the players. And so the players typically get a character sheet, they’ll interact only with the material in the book that’s relevant to what they want to play. Like if a player just wants to be a rogue, then they look up how much damage a dagger does and they write down their rogue abilities. If they play a wizard, they have a little bit more homework. They’ve got to do some research into spells but they figure out what spells they want and they build their characters. And they have a very smaller interaction there. But part of that experience with playing in the game, as opposed to reading it or examining it from a Gamemaster point of view, is that the players need to reference the book a lot because— So wizards, for instance, with spells, the spells are inside of the core book. But they don’t typically— Like, the spells usually have enough information that it can’t be jotted down really easily. So I’ve seen people photocopy pages that have the spells for their character and include that with their character sheet. I’ve seen people they’ll actually try and find the text for it or enter it themselves inside of a Word document and print it out. And so people are just trying to take that content from that roleplaying game book and they’re trying to format it in a way that is easier to bring to the table to play.

[Todd] So it sounds like there’s a strong analog culture in tabletop role-playing games. There are these books and you talked about printing things out. They may exist in a Word doc but they get printed out. Is there just fundamentally something very analog and tactile about tabletop role-playing games? Or is that more of a function of just how they’re made and distributed?

[Randy] I think it was to do with the history of role-playing games. Historically, they’ve been analog because, I mean, the digital versions of anything haven’t really been around long enough to impact it very strongly. Although in the last, I’d say, four years, digital has had a very strong impact on role-playing games. But there really is an analog sort of feel to it. Now that said, there is a burgeoning market of online gameplay and digital tools to bring to the table. So there’s this analog play. Okay, I did mention printing out and things like that. But there’s also a hybrid digital-analog. You’ll come to the table, you’ll have your miniatures, you’ll put them down on the map. But maybe you’ll have an iPad where you have a text document where you’re keeping notes. Or your character sheet and things like that are done digitally. And then there’s an online experience where you go to an online virtual tabletop and play there. And use all of the digital tools and you’re doing a call on Zoom or a video call and talking with your friends.

[Todd] So that’s a way to experience remotely, in that case, the digital experience. Interesting. So when you’re interacting with the content— So if you’re a Dungeon Master, obviously you have this encyclopedia that you have to reference. But if you’re a player, you need to know your character’s abilities and their background and things like that. How is that content structured? Are they expected to—or you, everybody who plays—are you expected to just photocopy pages out of that book and distribute them? Or does everybody— Are they given different kinds of information, like more limited information about their character than the Dungeon Master receives?

[Randy] No. The players and the Dungeon Master both have the same access to the same amount of information about the rules and theme of the character. So if you’re playing a wizard, there’s no hidden benefits or hidden hindrances to casting a certain spell. But the players have character sheets and on those character sheets, it almost never fits all the information that you need to run your character because there is a robust set of information that needs. So for like a spell, like if you’re casting a classic spell like fireball, you need to know the range of it. The components that go into it.

[Todd] What do you mean by components?

[Randy] So components like material components. Like, whatever— It’s bat guano and a bit of sulfur for fireball. Verbal components, which means that your wizard has to be able to talk in the narrative. And then somatic components which are being able to gesture, again, within the narrative. So if someone has their hand over your mouth, you can’t do verbal components. And that becomes relevant sometimes whenever you’re trying to cast spells. And no one, not even me, has all of these spells memorized. I don’t know which spells require which components off the top of my head. So you have to access all of these which means that players are looking things up in books all of the time. And often, this leads to actually a slow down during play. Because I’ll say, “Hey, Todd. It’s your turn. What do you want to do?” And you tell me, “Oh, I’m casting a fireball.” And then I remind you that a monster has prevented you from talking. And then, suddenly, you’ve got to tu\r\n \to page whatever to figure out if you can still cast the thing that you need to cast. And that creates a time sink in the game which makes it less fun and a bit of a problem.

[Todd] So the players better know what they’re doing. Otherwise, it’s going to slow it down and bore everybody.

[Randy] Oh, absolutely. No one wants to flip through a book during a game.

[Todd] Right. Right. So thinking about the structure of the information here. So breaking down the content of role-playing games into a modeler, into information architecture, there are pieces then that are recipe-like. So if you’re casting a spell, you have to know the components and how to prepare the spell and you have to manage the state of various characters. One character is bound and gagged and so they can’t gesture or speak. So you, I guess, the Dungeon Master, you have to maintain the state of somebody else. Or do you also manage things like their inventories so that you know what components they have, what recipe ingredients they have?

[Randy] Well, usually, this falls on the shoulders of the player to keep track of what they have. Myself, as a Dungeon Master, I like to have a copy of their inventories, so I know what they have and what they don’t have to make things more or less challenging based on what equipment they have. But that generally falls on the shoulders of the players.

[Todd] Got it. Okay. Earlier, you were mentioning a shift into the digital world. And when you and I talked about this very briefly before we got started, you mentioned something called a system reference document or SRD. What is that?

[Randy] Sure. So back in 2000, Dungeons & Dragons came out with a new edition called Third Edition because it was the third edition. And they had created what’s called the Open Gaming License referred to as the OGL. And what this did was, this took the core engine of Dungeons & Dragons, the rules, level advancement, the character classes, the spells, and open-sourced it. So if you think about taking the core of Dungeons & Dragons and putting it up on GitHub and making it available, that’s the analogy for what they did in 2000. And that created a market where a lot of people were producing a lot of content for Dungeons & Dragons that wasn’t necessarily just the people who made Dungeons & Dragons. And so, that created a—

[Todd] What kind of content were they producing, just to [provide an example]?

[Randy] Sure. So they were producing new classes. So instead of just being limited to the classes that were in the player’s handbook, they were coming up with new classes, like maybe there’s a priest or a ninja. They would create their own classes. They would create their own gaming worlds. So instead of being stuck in the fantasy of Dungeons & Dragons, people were creating their own versions of it and their own gaming worlds within their own imaginations. It was a great time to— It was a great time for all of this the imagination to come out. And there was a wealth of content that you only needed to learn how to play one game, Dungeons & Dragons, and you knew how to play all of these other games. And it was a boon to the role-playing game industry.

[Todd] How many of these new classes, and quests, and things that were contributed back, in this framework? Do you think we’re created by people who had been playing Dungeons & Dragons for decades, maybe, and had this all written down in notebooks and things? And now finally, they had a framework to put it in and share it with other people.

[Randy] Oh, a ton of them. I’m sure a lot of them. Because at the time, being able to manufacture PDFs, just creating PDFs from whatever documents you had, was getting easier at the time, too. And so this meant that there was this open-sourcing of the Dungeons & Dragons ruleset and the ability to easily create professional-grade PDFs. And it was just a huge market. So, yeah. So everybody who had the imagination the wherewithal could absolutely produce themselves whatever they needed to. The number of companies in the role-playing game industry boomed. There was a lot of success out of that. And it was amazing.

[Todd] And this is all because Dungeons & Dragons decided to essentially open-source their core game engine just [inaudible] most basic rulebook. The system reference document. And from that came all of this new invention.

[Randy] Absolutely. And this system reference document that Dungeons & Dragons created inspired a lot of other gaming systems to do the same. So there was an open-source revolution inside of the role-playing game industry. A lot of people will realize that by open-sourcing their engine, okay, so all of the rules, not the specifics, so if you have certain monsters, you will want to keep that as intellectual property. But the rules itself, they saw it as a valuable way to allow fans and other publishers to contribute to the ecosystem to make it bigger. So instead of, like— If I’m a small publisher, and I can produce three books a year, that’s one thing. But if I have three other companies producing three other books for my game a year, and then fans producing content for my game, that increases a word of mouth and increases popularity, and improves my bottom line. So these system reference documents provided that. In fact, they still do. There are a lot of companies that today have the system reference documents. And it’s doing them a world of good.

[Todd] Fascinating. So again, like the story of open-source, right?

[Randy] Exactly.

[Todd] Exactly. Yeah. So you have been involved in the translation of some of these system reference documents to an online format, correct?

[Randy] That is correct.

[Todd] So tell us about that.

[Randy] Sure. So back in, I think it was 2004, a role-playing game was Kickstartered called Fate. And as part of that Kickstarter process, they released the system reference document for the game. I quickly fell in love with the game. It is still, to this day, my very favorite role-playing game. And so I decided that since it was out and it was new, I was going to design and build a website for the system reference document. I wanted it to be something— Up until I decided to do the system reference site for Fate, all of the system reference document sites were really kind of done by people who were fans but didn’t have a design. I didn’t have a strong eye for these things. My apologies if I’m leaving somebody out there that I missed. But the Fate SRD, I made it beautiful and functional and accessible. In fact, I continue, to this day, to run tests on it to make sure performance is good on it. I actually had a blind user send me a message saying that the site allowed them to use the rule set because they were able to access it online. And so I built this thing and it was really nice because the industry itself, [the] role-playing game industry, has a— it’s kind of the equivalent of the People’s Choice or the Oscars. It’s called the ENnies. It happens every year at a big convention called Gen Con. They award silver and gold awards for various things, among them websites. And the Fate system reference document site that I did,, won a silver that year.

[Todd] Congratulations.

[Randy] So again I do have [crosstalk].

[Todd] And that’s not your only ENnie, right? You won more than one ENnie, right?

[Randy] No, no, in fact— Yes, yes, in fact I think two or three years later another game system came out called Blades in the Dark, which is also a really good role-playing game. They released a system reference document. I said, “Oh, I’ll do this one too.” And I built it and designed it and this one won gold. So I now have a gold and a silver ENnie sitting around waiting for me to actually frame and put up on my wall.

[Todd] That’s awesome. Well, we’re going to take a very quick break and we’ll be right back with our ENnie award-winning guest Randy Ost. See you in just a moment.

[Voiceover] The Future of Content is brought to you by Four Kitchens. Our team creates digital experiences that delight, scale, and deliver measurable results. Whether you need an accessibility audit, a dedicated support team, or a world-class digital experience platform, the Web Chefs have you covered. Four Kitchens: We make BIG websites.

[Todd] Welcome back. We’re here with Randy Oest, role-playing gamer. Is that the right term by the way?

[Randy] Yeah, absolutely.

[Todd] Okay. All right. I want to make sure— who knows. You got to be careful. I don’t want to offend any role-playing gamers, gamers—anybody. So with the last few minutes that we have, I would like to focus on the future of RPG content. So Randy, where do you feel all of this is headed from a content perspective?

[Randy] Absolutely. So my thought on the future of role-playing games and this is something that I advocate with the role-playing game community at large is going digital first. The reason that I advocate going digital first is— Well, I mean it’s baked into the experience that I have with the Fate SRD site. I have analytics on it and I look at it and I get thousands of visitors every month to this site. I’ve talked to a lot of people who play Fate, and most of them reference rules on the website as opposed to inside of the book because it’s a lot easier to find at the website. Because the content structure and being able to search and things being hyperlinked, it makes it way more easier. Another example that I have for the future of content being digital is that Dungeons & Dragons has hired out a third party to create… kind of like a game experience for the people who are playing the game. So it’s called D&D Beyond, and what they do is— Earlier when we were talking about the problem of players at the table and being able to look up content and having everything at their fingertips, DnD Beyond solves that. It does it by making sure that when you have your list of spells— if you click on the spell, all of the information pops up whenever you click on that which means that you only a single click away from having the information that you need at the table. So bring your iPad, set up your character, and you are good to go. Digital first allows you to structure what you’re presenting based on the audience. So DnD Beyond allows players to have access to what they need. It also provides access to Dungeon Masters, what they need. So if I need to choose monsters for an encounter, there’s an encounter builder in DnD Beyond that allows me to do it quickly, relying on me to do no math. I just say, I want this monster. It tells me if it’s the right challenge for the group, and I’m able to do that very quickly, and again, have everything at my fingertips.

[Todd] So it speeds up game play?

[Randy] Yeah, it yeah. It cuts the fat from the game. So no more flipping through books trying to figure out if something is right or wrong. You just figure it out and move on, so yes. It makes it so much better, so much easier.

[Todd] And last thought, I want to ask you about livestreaming and the impact of livestreaming on role-playing games. You and I talked a little bit earlier, and you introduced the concept—first time I’d heard it—of “actual play.” So what does that mean, and how does that factor into livestreaming RPGs?

[Randy] Sure, so right now, one of the big renaissance things in the role-playing game industry is actual plays. So most people when they think about actual plays probably think about Twitch and how people are streaming them[selves] playing video games. This is the same thing but for role-playing games. People are actually gathering and livestreaming their games or recording their games and posting it on YouTube or even turning them into podcasts. And this is becoming a very big thing. There’s an actual play show called Critical Role that they decided— They’ve had this huge fanbase. They decided to do a Kickstarter to do an animated version of their characters, to do an animated show. They wanted to produce a half-an-hour episode of animation, and that was their goal. They ended up getting, I think, three, four, maybe five million dollars via Kickstarter. And now they have an entire season because they have all of these fans.

The McElroy brothers, from My Brother, My Brother, and Me, they have a podcast called The Adventure Zone where they originally played Dungeons & Dragons, and now they play a game called Monster of the Week. And it is having a tremendous impact on the role-playing game industry because the people are listening to these podcasts, they’re getting interested in the games, and they’re going and buying the games, looking for groups. I can say that the impact on Monster of the Week sales because that’s an indie game. It’s a very small game, almost no one had heard about it until Adventure Zone started playing it, and now they’re selling thousands of copies a month. So this concept of actual play is revolutionizing the role-playing game industry.

[Todd] And this is just a way for people to expand their community, right? These are people who already play the game, and they get to— I guess it’s the same phenomenon as people going on YouTube and watching other people play video games, right? Same kind of concept.

[Randy] Absolutely. In fact, the folks behind Dungeons & Dragons, they have their own Twitch channel that runs two to three games a day, just live streaming. They have various seasons. It’s almost like it’s its own television network.

[Todd] So it sounds like, just to kind of wrap up some thoughts here, it sounds like there’s a big boom happening in the RPG world. Is that safe to say?

[Randy] Absolutely. The financial growth of the industry is just, year over year, getting larger and larger by large percentages.

[Todd] And it sounds like some of the key drivers of this growth have been Dungeons & Dragons setting an example for open sourcing the fundamental rules of an RPG and then other publishers following suit. And then the ability for streaming content and hosting video sites and podcasts and things like that to demonstrate game play and build a community around it as well.

[Randy] Absolutely, absolutely.

[Todd] Fascinating. Well, thank you, Randy. I knew virtually nothing about RPGs earlier today, and while I’m no expert, I’ve learned quite a bit. Thank you for sharing all of this. And thank you everybody for listening. Until next time, enjoy your content.

[Voiceover] You’ve been listening to The Future of Content, a podcast from the Web Chefs at Four Kitchens. Hosted by Todd Nienkerk. Produced by PJ Hagerty. Theme song is PAFRATY by DJ Listo. Find us on Twitter @FoCpodcast [], and get in touch by email at